George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series

[MilesHackett]

Finally a place where we can speculate!

This thread is bound to have spoilers, so PLEASE use them when you feel it is necessary guys!

Alright, so here's the first point I'd like to discuss:

If you haven't read A Dance with Dragons, please do not open these tags!

How much truth do you think there is in the letter Ramsay Bolton sends to Jon Snow on the Wall? Is Stannis Baratheon really dead?

I haven't really sorted my thoughts out on this one, so I'd love to hear from Will or anyone else who has read ADWD. Maybe I'll be able to form my opinion a little better from reading yours.

[FunkYou]

I.hope not as I would feel a bit cheated. I like that he is willing to kill anyone but you have to do that shit "on screen".

How did you react to Jon Snow getting shivved? I was little disappointed with the book until that moment. It matched Ned getting executed and was up there with the Red wedding for shock factor.

[MilesHackett]

I.hope not as I would feel a bit cheated. I like that he is willing to kill anyone but you have to do that shit "on screen".

Haha, I know what you mean. I feel like GRRM will revisit Bolton's letter with a flashback chapter through the eyes of someone that was there.. Although you'd have to wonder who, as there are no previously established POV characters in those events.

GRRM has used misdirection before to make us think that an important character has been killed off (for example: Davos being killed by Wyman Manderly and the Freys), so I wouldn't be shocked if Stannis isn't actually dead.


That said, I think Stannis has been killed, I'm just curious as to whether or not he died storming Winterfell, or at the village his host was waiting at 3 day from Winterfell. Reek found Stannis' host, but in Ramsay's letter he asks for his Reek.. so Asha and Theon get away, but Stannis marches on to his doom? So many questions..




How did you react to Jon Snow getting shivved? I was little disappointed with the book until that moment. It matched Ned getting executed and was up there with the Red wedding for shock factor.

My jaw absolutely hit the floor. That said, after the raw emotional reaction settled, I rationalized it out in my head and there is no way he is dead.

There are some theories out there regarding how he survived. The most likely ones are:


1) Jon (like Varamyr Sixskins in the prologue) wargs into someone/something as he dies. My guess is either ghost or Wun Wun.

2) Jon is revived by Melisandre, like Beric was revived by Thoros.

3) The dead bodies in the ice cells are used as practice dummies for Jon to warg into. Melisandre uses an appearance masking spell (like the one she used on Mance) on the corpse that Jon wargs into and he wargs out of it after he dies. This one's the most far-fetched, IMO.


Which ones do you subscribe to, Will? Or do you think he is dead?

[Rhetro]

I'm still on book 4, A Feast for Crows. The book series is amazing and I would recommend it to anyone who likes reading fantasyesque fiction.

Thanks for the spoiler tags guys.

[FunkYou]

Now way is he dead. I think it was a dig at all the GRRM fanboys who have deified Jon Snow in recent years. The warg prologue pretty much shows that Jon won't die. He will be in Ghost faster than shit off a shovel.

I think as far as Stannis goes it could be that the letter is fake and it is Reese who is dead and the letter is to throw confusion around. Although that is not really Stannis' style as he has pretty much a "Come at me bro" attitude.

The most interesting storyline in the book for me was Arya becoming a badass assassin. That was the only one where GRRM didn't seem to have timeline issues that caused everyone else in Westeros and Myreen to sit and wait for people to get places. Now that she has her eyes back I am interested to see how far he is willing to develop that character into a total spirit of revenge type/

[MilesHackett]

I'm still on book 4, A Feast for Crows. The book series is amazing and I would recommend it to anyone who likes reading fantasyesque fiction.

Thanks for the spoiler tags guys.


No problem. I would venture as far as saying I would recommend this series to anyone who likes to read. It's really not like your typical over-the-top magic fantasy most people come to associate with the genre.

What I appreciate the most (well, beyond the sheer expanse of the world that Martin has developed) is his ability to write so many characters so well. Each character has their own, unique voice. He even writes female characters well, IMO.


Now way is he dead. I think it was a dig at all the GRRM fanboys who have deified Jon Snow in recent years. The warg prologue pretty much shows that Jon won't die. He will be in Ghost faster than shit off a shovel.

I think as far as Stannis goes it could be that the letter is fake and it is Reese who is dead and the letter is to throw confusion around. Although that is not really Stannis' style as he has pretty much a "Come at me bro" attitude.

The most interesting storyline in the book for me was Arya becoming a badass assassin. That was the only one where GRRM didn't seem to have timeline issues that caused everyone else in Westeros and Myreen to sit and wait for people to get places. Now that she has her eyes back I am interested to see how far he is willing to develop that character into a total spirit of revenge type/


I completely agree, Will. I definitely think GRRM tried pulling a fast one on us. The whole "Prince That Was Promised" prophecy pretty much ensures that Jon is alive IMO. He has to be the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and not Eddard Stark. He's got the Stark look, but the character traits/wits of Rhaegar.

I also love Arya's story arc. At first I didn't really clue into what was happening, with her "wax on, wax off" sort of training, but I can see now how she has been groomed into a slick killing machine. I'm just curious as to what her role will be in the rest of the book.


Also, what of Cersei vs. Margaery? Is Cersei the next big character to get the axe? Or his Robert the Strong *cough*GregorClegane*cough* going to save her ass?

[RileyTP17]

No problem. I would venture as far as saying I would recommend this series to anyone who likes to read. It's really not like your typical over-the-top magic fantasy most people come to associate with the genre.

What I appreciate the most (well, beyond the sheer expanse of the world that Martin has developed) is his ability to write so many characters so well. Each character has their own, unique voice. He even writes female characters well, IMO.







Totally forgot that spoiler tags show when you quote. Oops, dont think I saw anything.

Anyways completely agree. It is definitely a fantasy title, but more lord of the rings. Other than the white walkers and dragons and R'hollor super natural and magic is pretty limited.

Agree about the characters as well, and females too. The Arya storyline is one of my favorites. I really like how he presents each chapter from a specific characters point of view, especially when it is around the same events. For instance (for those who have read Storm of Swords):

The scene where Bran, Meera and crew are on top of the abandoned tower in the middle of the lake during that storm and then the next chapter is Jon Snow's point of view from below when he escapes from the wildlings. A great scene of these two brothers being so close and not knowing it. No idea if they do connect, I havent read either of their parts past this.

[ThatGuyJae]

Well I haven't read any of this series but after this thread, and Miles FB status about it I'm def going to be checking it out!!

Can get the first 4 nook books for like 20 bucks I think not bad!! Will more than likely just download them though haha
Need to finish the book I'm reading now. I've slacked so much on reading since leaving NYC, used to read on the train would finish about a book a week it seemed.

[MilesHackett]

Agree about the characters as well, and females too. The Arya storyline is one of my favorites. I really like how he presents each chapter from a specific characters point of view, especially when it is around the same events. For instance (for those who have read Storm of Swords)

Yeah, I completely agree. I absolutely love when Martin uses back-to-back chapters to develop an event from two different perspectives. I think it catches you off guard because it doesn't happen too often and it screws with the chronology of the book in an excellent way.

Well I haven't read any of this series but after this thread, and Miles FB status about it I'm def going to be checking it out!!

Can get the first 4 nook books for like 20 bucks I think not bad!! Will more than likely just download them though haha
Need to finish the book I'm reading now. I've slacked so much on reading since leaving NYC, used to read on the train would finish about a book a week it seemed.

Man, these books are amazing. I couldn't recommend them more. Be sure to post what you think in here as you slay them.

[RileyTP17]

For those who have read Storm of Swords:

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!

I just finished the chapter of Edmure and the Frey chicks wedding and holy shit. Has there ever been a book where it sucks so much to be a protagonist? Seriously, nothing has ever gone good for the Starks thoughout this entire series. I go into this chapter thinking that Oh sweet Arya is finally going to be reunited with her family and something good will finally come to the Starks. Nope. Robb gets a sword through his chest and Catelyn goes crazy then has her head sawed off.

Ned's dead, Catelyn's dead, Robb's dead. Jon is at the Wall with pretty much no hope against the wildlings. Bran and Rickon are god who knows where and what the fuck they are going to do. Sansa is in possession of the Lannisters, but at least has Tyrion to protect her. And somehow I find that Arya is in the best shape with the Hound.

Daenerys needs to get over here and start pushing shit in.

/rant

[RileyTP17]

Lol, I really over estimated Arya's safety with the hound.

Jesus, I cant believe I just read that.

On a lighter note:

owf6D2vfZqM

[MilesHackett]

For those who have read Storm of Swords:

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!

I just finished the chapter of Edmure and the Frey chicks wedding and holy shit. Has there ever been a book where it sucks so much to be a protagonist? Seriously, nothing has ever gone good for the Starks thoughout this entire series. I go into this chapter thinking that Oh sweet Arya is finally going to be reunited with her family and something good will finally come to the Starks. Nope. Robb gets a sword through his chest and Catelyn goes crazy then has her head sawed off.

Ned's dead, Catelyn's dead, Robb's dead. Jon is at the Wall with pretty much no hope against the wildlings. Bran and Rickon are god who knows where and what the fuck they are going to do. Sansa is in possession of the Lannisters, but at least has Tyrion to protect her. And somehow I find that Arya is in the best shape with the Hound.

Daenerys needs to get over here and start pushing shit in.

/rant


Hahaha, I love reading your reaction to that whole event because it pretty much mirrored mine exactly. Sounds like you're enjoying the books, as much as they fuck with your emotions lol. I love how you honestly cannot see where GRRM is going with the story, he sets up these narrative expectations then shits all over them. Brilliant writer.

I haven't read Game of Thrones, so I might go back and read that because I need to keep the series fresh in my mind.

Also, sort of off topic, but I'm thinking of getting a Song of Ice and Fire tattoo. It's sort of intentionally ironic, but I want to get "words are wind" in script. I just really like that phrase that is thrown about quite a bit in Westeros lol.

[RileyTP17]

Hahaha, I love reading your reaction to that whole event because it pretty much mirrored mine exactly. Sounds like you're enjoying the books, as much as they fuck with your emotions lol. I love how you honestly cannot see where GRRM is going with the story, he sets up these narrative expectations then shits all over them. Brilliant writer.

I haven't read Game of Thrones, so I might go back and read that because I need to keep the series fresh in my mind.

Also, sort of off topic, but I'm thinking of getting a Song of Ice and Fire tattoo. It's sort of intentionally ironic, but I want to get "words are wind" in script. I just really like that phrase that is thrown about quite a bit in Westeros lol.

Yeah, he definitely twists the story around to the point that you have to give up nearly all your expectations.

You've never read AGoT Miles?

I finished Storm of Swords last week, just some general thoughts:


Well, I thought it was a slower start and the story did not captivate me like the previous two. The last 400 or so pages changed that though. Definitely my favorite so far in the series. Lots of drama, action, twists, deception.

My favorite scene was probably the fight between the Prince of Dorne and Ser Clegane. At first there was no way I thought the Red Viper was going to win and Tyrion would have been found guilty just because how the story so far always goes poorly for the protagonists. Then after a while it was like, whoa he's going to win! Of course for him to get too cocky and then crushed/bludgeoned to death. Great detail in the battle though, and getting the confession from Clegane for murdering the Kings family was vindicating. The Hound and Lord Beric's was pretty sweet too.

Jon's storyline was easily my favorite again. I really liked everything with the wildlings, Mance, Ygritte, the giants, etc. Him receiving Lord Commander was pretty predictable but whatever, I like how that is going. And going into the next book this storyline still has me the most interested/curious.

I thought the ending in general was pretty satisfying. We get a lot of answers to questions that were lingering from earlier in the series, like who sent the assassin for Bran and the truth behind Tyrion's first marriage. Tyrion escaping and killing Tywin was pretty sweet, especially the final line going something like "and found out that in fact, no, Tywin Lannister did not shit gold." The ending in the Eyrie was pretty fun too. Petyr has emerged as the most deceitful, manipulative character out of the bunch and his future seems intriguing.

It had some flaws too though. The Red Wedding is probably the most taken-a-back I have ever been in a book or movie. That chapter was nuts. But then to have Joffery killed at his wedding like 5 chapters later seemed really lazy to me. It was a really meh death for me. Also I don't really care for Bran's storyline, at all. The whole warg thing just doesn't do it for me. But I have read that it becomes an important part in ADWD, so whatever. And it does seem like it might get interesting now that he is passed the wall. I feel pretty convinced that Cold Hands is Benjen too. Otherwise, why have him seem to be so relevant to the story throughout the three books and keep bringing him up? But why am I questioning anything in this book, its all fucked up.

Question for Miles or anyone else this far:

Is Maester Aemon, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight? He says he is a Targaryen and the Dragonknight is mentioned a few times, just not sure if they are the same guy.

[FunkYou]

Master aemon is the dragonknight's brother.

[MilesHackett]

Sorry it's taking me so long to respond, I had not noticed that there were new posts in this section.

Yeah, he definitely twists the story around to the point that you have to give up nearly all your expectations.

You've never read AGoT Miles?

No, I will probably pick it up this week though. I was too interested in finding out what happened after the 1st season of the HBO series, so I just picked up with ACoK. I am having serious George Martin withdrawal though, his writing style is riveting.

I finished Storm of Swords last week, just some general thoughts:


Well, I thought it was a slower start and the story did not captivate me like the previous two. The last 400 or so pages changed that though. Definitely my favorite so far in the series. Lots of drama, action, twists, deception.

My favorite scene was probably the fight between the Prince of Dorne and Ser Clegane. At first there was no way I thought the Red Viper was going to win and Tyrion would have been found guilty just because how the story so far always goes poorly for the protagonists. Then after a while it was like, whoa he's going to win! Of course for him to get too cocky and then crushed/bludgeoned to death. Great detail in the battle though, and getting the confession from Clegane for murdering the Kings family was vindicating. The Hound and Lord Beric's was pretty sweet too.

Yeah, the battle between the Red Viper and The Mountain was amazingly done. I honestly had no idea how it would end up because the Red Viper was fighting smart, but the Mountain is the Mountain, after all lol. As soon as the Red Viper got cocky though, I felt sick because I sensed that the Mountain would finish him. Definitely one of the coolest fight scenes I've read.

Jon's storyline was easily my favorite again. I really liked everything with the wildlings, Mance, Ygritte, the giants, etc. Him receiving Lord Commander was pretty predictable but whatever, I like how that is going. And going into the next book this storyline still has me the most interested/curious.

Yeah, I find Jon to be the character I sympathize with most. His family has been systematically destroyed for political gain and he's unable to directly fight back while he is a part of the Night's Watch. His story is actually most intriguing in Dance with Dragons, hopefully you're close to reading that book now lol.

It had some flaws too though. The Red Wedding is probably the most taken-a-back I have ever been in a book or movie. That chapter was nuts. But then to have Joffery killed at his wedding like 5 chapters later seemed really lazy to me. It was a really meh death for me.

I definitely think that perspective has merit. I personally liked the death of that sniveling little shit Joffrey, because it sort of furthered the idea that no one is ever truly in control of the events in the plot. The Lannisters orchestrated the Red Wedding and they never would have imagined that the same sacred principle that they broke (the host-guest pact about violence), could be turned against them within their own walls.

I mean, the Frey's (at the discretion of the Lannisters) killed Robb and Catelyn with a sneak attack when they felt safe among peers and essentially, Joffrey is killed at a seemingly safe location infront of his family members and characters that theoretically couldn't be ruled out of responsibility by the Lannisters (the Dornish and Tyrells). Joffrey's death, in a way counter-balances the Stark massacre and sort of creates a bunch of trust-smashing fissures between the Lannisters and every other powerful family in Westeros.

So, while I get why you think it's a cop-out, I also feel that an event like that happening to Joffrey did more for creating further drama later on in the plot of the series than a death by any other means.


Also I don't really care for Bran's storyline, at all. The whole warg thing just doesn't do it for me. But I have read that it becomes an important part in ADWD, so whatever. And it does seem like it might get interesting now that he is passed the wall. I feel pretty convinced that Cold Hands is Benjen too. Otherwise, why have him seem to be so relevant to the story throughout the three books and keep bringing him up? But why am I questioning anything in this book, its all fucked up.

Even after ADWD, I find Bran's storyline to be the least interesting of all the Starks. I'm not sure what his role will be in the future, but it must be something big because his plot is taking so long to develop into something truly captivating. Also, I think your theory about Coldhands/Benjen is right too. Also, what the hell is going on with Rickon? We haven't heard anything about him in ages.

[RileyTP17]

Sorry it's taking me so long to respond, I had not noticed that there were new posts in this section.



No, I will probably pick it up this week though. I was too interested in finding out what happened after the 1st season of the HBO series, so I just picked up with ACoK. I am having serious George Martin withdrawal though, his writing style is riveting.

[/SPOIL]

Yeah, the battle between the Red Viper and The Mountain was amazingly done. I honestly had no idea how it would end up because the Red Viper was fighting smart, but the Mountain is the Mountain, after all lol. As soon as the Red Viper got cocky though, I felt sick because I sensed that the Mountain would finish him. Definitely one of the coolest fight scenes I've read.



Yeah, I find Jon to be the character I sympathize with most. His family has been systematically destroyed for political gain and he's unable to directly fight back while he is a part of the Night's Watch. His story is actually most intriguing in Dance with Dragons, hopefully you're close to reading that book now lol.



I definitely think that perspective has merit. I personally liked the death of that sniveling little shit Joffrey, because it sort of furthered the idea that no one is ever truly in control of the events in the plot. The Lannisters orchestrated the Red Wedding and they never would have imagined that the same sacred principle that they broke (the host-guest pact about violence), could be turned against them within their own walls.

I mean, the Frey's (at the discretion of the Lannisters) killed Robb and Catelyn with a sneak attack when they felt safe among peers and essentially, Joffrey is killed at a seemingly safe location infront of his family members and characters that theoretically couldn't be ruled out of responsibility by the Lannisters (the Dornish and Tyrells). Joffrey's death, in a way counter-balances the Stark massacre and sort of creates a bunch of trust-smashing fissures between the Lannisters and every other powerful family in Westeros.

So, while I get why you think it's a cop-out, I also feel that an event like that happening to Joffrey did more for creating further drama later on in the plot of the series than a death by any other means.




Even after ADWD, I find Bran's storyline to be the least interesting of all the Starks. I'm not sure what his role will be in the future, but it must be something big because his plot is taking so long to develop into something truly captivating. Also, I think your theory about Coldhands/Benjen is right too. Also, what the hell is going on with Rickon? We haven't heard anything about him in ages.

Just gonna label each section by number and respont to them that way.

1. First I highly recommend AGoT. Personally it is my second favorite book of the series, and if the last 400 pages of ASoS weren't that ridiculous it would easily by my favorite. Just from beginning to end a real solid book. It connects you so well with the Starks, but simply has great character and plot development.

2. I felt it too at that point.

4. After finishing AFfC, I completely agree with this. I kinda rushed the end of swords just because I found it so exciting that I didn't catch onto a lot of things. But it was a great set-up to further plot lines of Lannister vs everyone else (of note at least).

I am just into the first few chapters of ADwD, probably around the 100 page mark. At this rate I will most likely have it done by mid next week so will post my thoughts on that as well.

[MilesHackett]

Just gonna label each section by number and respont to them that way.

1. First I highly recommend AGoT. Personally it is my second favorite book of the series, and if the last 400 pages of ASoS weren't that ridiculous it would easily by my favorite. Just from beginning to end a real solid book. It connects you so well with the Starks, but simply has great character and plot development.

2. I felt it too at that point.

4. After finishing AFfC, I completely agree with this. I kinda rushed the end of swords just because I found it so exciting that I didn't catch onto a lot of things. But it was a great set-up to further plot lines of Lannister vs everyone else (of note at least).

I am just into the first few chapters of ADwD, probably around the 100 page mark. At this rate I will most likely have it done by mid next week so will post my thoughts on that as well.


Awesome. I'm glad you're really into the series, it's an absolute treat to discuss it and the whole world that Martin created. It blows my mind how complex and developed the plot and characters are, it really makes for an unpredictable read that doesn't feel bloated like some of Tolkien's writing. Are you going to start watching the HBO adaptation now?

[RileyTP17]

Oh ya, I've watched the season over a couple times now. I think its great, loved how they stayed true to the books. And you get to see dany's boobs a lot which is awesome. Peter dinklage was great as tyrion too, he does the character a lot of justice.

I finished adwd a couple weeks ago and will reply to your guys posts when I get to a computer. I will say this though,
I wonder how he is going to finish this series with only two more books left. It feels as if we are like only half way through the story because so much still needs to happen. Unfortunately I think it will come off as rushed and panicked.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ----------

Sorry for the double post but my phone is being retarded right now.

Has anyone read the dunk & egg short stories. I'm thinking of picking them up because they are about blood raven/ 3 eyed crow and it seems like he is going to be pretty important in the coming books.

[RileyTP17]

Alright, I finished ADWD a few weeks ago but just getting around to posting about it now and respond to some of Miles' and Funks points.



I really do not believe much of the Bolton letter, other than that he has Mance. He could have gotten all that information that was in the letter from flaying Mance. And I think we should know by now to not trust anything in this book unless it happens "on screen" and is then later confirmed in following chapters.

I was actually a little disappointed with the Winterfell chapters in this book. I had this feeling of anticipation that there was going to be some sort of comeuppance for the Red Wedding and we never really got it. The Frey pie was a nice little touch but I wanted some real justice. Oh well, guess I will have to wait for the next books.

Yeah there is no way that Jon Snow is dead. The last line of the chapter pretty much tells us that he warged into Ghost; "He never felt the fourth knife." His death is a plot device to allow him to leave the Nights Watch and fulfill the prophecy imo. But how bad ass was is it when he read the letter from Ramsay and was all lets go to Winterfell and smoke this bitch?

I agree that Arya's arcs is once again one of the best. I have wanted her to become this deadly assassin since she started her training with Syrio in AGoT.

One storyline I am really looking forward to is of Howland Reed and Greywater Watch. He is the only living person to know the truth of what happened at the Tower of Joy and therefore the possibility of a Rhaegar+Lyanna= Jon Snow (which it really has to be at this point). Plus I am pretty sure that Lady Mormont is in hiding there and in possession of Robb's final will that could possibly name Jon the heir to Winterfell.

The whole Mereen storyline was pretty frustrating, but it had parts of redemption. Dany was an idiot for the most part (with dealing with the harpy, locking up her dragons, just staying there in general). Ser Barriston's chapters were pretty sweet, especially when he went to arrest Dany's husband (not even gonna try and spell that shit). Prince Quentyn was a moron, I was so happy he got killed off.

I am really looking forward to Cersei's trial too. Robert the Strong is definitely Gregor Clegane and will be Cersei's choice for trial by battle. But since it is the Faith that is charging her, I have a theory that we are gonna see some Clegane vs Clegane action. I don't think the Hound is dead. I think he is on the Quiet Isle. Well I should rephrase that. The Hound may be dead, but Sandor is not. There is a monk on the Isle that fits his description and this brothers sub-plot has been referenced too many times throughout the series to not have the inevitable conclusion even if it is not the Hound vs the Mountain that Rides we thought would happen initially.

As a whole, I was a little disappointed with the book as I found it and AFfC to be mostly filler and not advancing the plot too much and as a I said in my last post I am worried he will try to fit too much into the final two books without letting the plot develop itself. But I still enjoyed it, it just wasn't as good as the first 3 I thought. Good to see Varys back, that sneaky fuck.

[FunkYou]

The Mereen chapters were the reason for the book taking th best part of a decade to get written. Dany is very clever for the first few books but then becomes this stupid girl who sits on her ass waiting for a man to sort out her problems. It was a timescale issue as much as anything. I would have preferred it if GRRM had just ignored her and then had her arrive with the army behind her one day in Westoros.

[ThatGuyJae]

Just to finish up the first book can not wait to continue with this series also want to check out the show Ive been avoiding it until I read it.